74. How We Rest: Sleep, Kindness, and Communication with Sujani Sivanantharajah
I’m so excited to announce a new 4-part miniseries here on the podcast: How We Rest. Each month for the rest of the year, I’m interviewing a different person in public health to learn more about their journey with rest, to help you see that rest is unique and personal to all of us, and remind you that you get to decide and define what it means to you.
These 4 professionals are amazing people doing amazing work in the world, who also have challenges with rest just like you. This week, we’re kicking off the series with Sujani Sivanantharajah. Sujani is a public health professional trained in Epidemiology. She is the founder of PH Spot, a career development platform for public health professionals around the world that helps people build their dream careers. Sujani’s relationship with rest is much healthier now than it was years ago, and she joins me to share more about her journey this week.
Join us this week and hear Sujani’s journey with burnout and rest, what rest means to her, and some ways that she navigates the challenges of trying to rest. We discuss some of the different perceptions of self-care and why it changes from person to person, why we have been sold the false narrative that rest is a finite, limited thing and how to combat that, and the importance of finding the things that will help you personally feel rested.
If you want to take this work deeper and learn the tools and skills to feel better, all while having my support and guidance each step of the way, I invite you to set up a time to chat with me. Click here to grab a spot on my calendar and I can’t wait to speak to you!
The Burnout Recovery course is out and available right now, but not for much longer! Join this three-part mini-course to get concrete tools and skills to help you reduce pandemic stress, deal with difficult bosses, and reduce your workload. On September 30th, 2022, it’s coming down for good, so grab it now before it goes forever.
What You Will Discover:
The way I like to think about burnout and why public health professionals don’t recognize it as easily.
Why rest can change from person to person, and even day to day for the same person.
The importance of finding the things that will help you feel rested.
How things like sleep and being kind to yourself are a form of rest.
Sujani’s journey into public health and where PH Spot was born.
Why what is restful for you might differ from somebody else.
How building a rest practice is about building a relationship with and becoming more aligned with yourself.
Resources:
Get The Burnout Recovery Resolution mini-course right now by signing up here before September, 30th, 2022!
Sign up for a Curiosity Call to find out if individual coaching can help you!
Follow me on Instagram!
Questions? Comments? I'd love to hear from you! Email me at info@mckoolcoaching.com
Join my weekly mailing list to get bonus free resources and coaching opportunities!
Click here to join Sujani in her community!
The Sleep Revolution: Transforming Your Life, One Night at a Time by Arianna Huffington
Full Episode Transcript:
Hey, you all, I’m Marissa McKool, and you’re listening to the Redefining Rest Podcast for public health professionals. Here we believe rest is your right. You don’t have to earn it, you just have to learn how to take it and I’m going to teach you. Ready? Come along.
Hi everyone. How are you? Can you believe it’s almost October? I can’t believe it. I’m really excited to announce a new four part mini-series we’re doing on the podcast right here this fall. We are doing a series called How We Rest where I am interviewing four different folks in public health about their journey with rest. So, you can see that rest is unique and personal to all of us. That you get to define and decide what rest is for you.
Through these interviews with these four amazing public health professionals, you’re going to be able to hear from them and notice the similarities and where you can relate. But also, the differences and learn from them. These four professionals are amazing people who are doing amazing work in the world just like you, who also have challenges with getting rest just like you. And my goal is that you really are able to listen to these peers and colleagues and feel connected and feel empowered.
And know that we’re all in this together in this journey of doing great work in the world but also trying to do right by ourselves and prioritize ourselves. So, each month for the rest of the year we will air one of these interviews. And today is the first of this four part series with a new friend of mine, Sujani Siva. She is the founder of PH Spotlight which she’ll talk more about in the episode. And she’s a former epidemiologist who has worked in the federal government in Canada which again she’ll share more about that.
And we talk about rest from a science and sleep perspective, all the way to self-kindness and communication. So, with that I can’t wait for you to hear the episode. Let’s jump in.
Marissa: You’re not ready for this, it’s going to be such a good conversation. I’m so excited to have a new friend on the show. Sujani, do you want to introduce yourself?
Sujani: Hi, Marissa. And hello friends, yeah, my name is Sujani. And I don’t know how Marissa and I connected, probably through the world of the internet which is amazing.
Marissa: LinkedIn, yeah.
Sujani: Yeah, LinkedIn, there you go. I have made so many great friends through the internet. And so, I’m grateful to be here to be able to speak with Marissa and her community. So yeah, I in general, I think I call myself a public health professional. I was trained in epidemiology and as of recent I’d say maybe in the past couple of years I’ve kind of been transitioning out of that role and going into the space of policy, and partnerships, and collaboration. That’s kind of one part of my life.
And the other part is I am the founder of phspot.org. It’s a career development platform for public health professionals around the world. And our mission is to help build dream public health careers.
Marissa: Awesome. Can you share just a little bit about your public health journey? So, I mean you’ve shared a little bit, you were trained in epidemiology. But so, folks listening can have an idea of where you’ve been and what you’ve worked on.
Sujani: Yeah. No, absolutely. I’ll go back to maybe undergrad, and I thought I was going into dentistry when I started undergrad. And so, biology, health studies, all of those courses. And I’m sitting there in the first year absolutely not loving physics, calculus, all of the prerequisite courses.
Marissa: Our stories are so similar.
Sujani: Yeah, anatomy, I’m like, “I can’t memorize these things. I cannot connect with any of these courses.” And luckily the universe had me take an elective course and it was called Plagues and People. And that’s where I discovered this idea of pandemics, epidemics, population level health and I was like, “Okay, I think I can get behind this. I can feel myself connected to kind of the mission behind public health.” There was one course at the beginning of our course syllabus.
I remember the professor had included this beautiful poem. It’s called Don’t Ask Who the Bell Tolls for, it Tolls for Thee. And kind of talks about this idea of as individuals we’re not an island of ourselves. We are connected to this bigger whole. And I felt myself – I think at the time I probably didn’t have the words, but there was some sort of connection to that poem. And that’s when I kind of started looking into this idea of public health. I had a friend who knew more about epidemiology. He told me about it.
I started taking more courses, shifted my major from a biology focused major to more of a health studies and biology which then exposed me to more courses. And then nearing graduation I was like, “What am I going to do with this undergraduate degree?” So, I started looking into master’s level programs on public health, on epidemiology. Just reading about it, I felt more of a connection. I went down to do my master’s in public health at the University of Saskatchewan. I’m based in Canada so that’s where that is.
Yeah, I took more epi courses. And then upon graduation within about four months I kind of ‘landed’ the dream role that I had wanted when I started grad school and that was as an outbreak epidemiologist with the federal government here in Canada. And so, I was part of the team that was monitoring and responding to multijurisdictional food borne and zoonotic enteric illness outbreaks here in Canada. And so, we not only worked on outbreaks, but we also supported national projects, strengthened outbreak response and such.
And I did that about for five years, great people, mentors, great learning, I think it was such an important foundation for my public health training just because of all the great people I had met. After five years I kind of wanted a bit of a change, so did public health surveillance work specifically in the area of opioid overdose surveillance in a specific province. And then I did that for about a year and a half and that became emotionally intense, just kind of looking at the death reports and connecting the numbers and the stats to actual people.
And so, all of that was quite emotional and I’m sure I will get back to this period of my life when we get into today’s topic about rest because that’s when I discovered burnout and what that is, put words to what I was feeling. So, at that time I was like, “Okay, it’s time for me to move on.” Then went into more of a policy role. Started thinking about, okay, where are my strengths? What is it that I enjoy? What is it that I don’t? And kind of saw myself not building much, I guess I didn’t see myself building a decade more work in epidemiology.
So, kind of transitioned away from epidemiology. I knew I loved connecting with people, building partnerships, collaborations, so that’s kind of the role that I took on. And then the pandemic happened, worked a bit kind of around the epidemic and supporting public health data related work. I’ll kind of rewind a little bit and go back to when I started working after grad school I had a lot of people reach out asking about my journey. After speaking with a lot of individuals, PH Spot was born as a platform for me to connect other public health professionals to each other.
Because I felt at that time when I was speaking with individuals it was one sided, biased kind of perspective that they were getting. They were just hearing my story. I only took this one single path. And so, I thought it was important for everyone to hear each other’s kind of journeys. And so, PH Spot was officially born in 2017. So, I ran that on the side in addition to working as an epidemiologist. And then today as we are recording, it’s the summer of 2022, most if not all of my time when I’m not with my newborn baby is spent on PH Spot.
And yeah, I’m just very excited for the community that we’re building around PH Spot. And all the great collaborations that we’re doing with that.
Marissa: There are so many parallels in your story and my story. As you’re talking I’m like, oh my gosh, do we have the same story? What exposed me to public health wasn’t elective. And it was about HIV which is not plagues but it’s still like an endemic, pandemic and stuff. And also landing my dream job in government after grad school and ending up burned out. It’s just like, wow, so many parallels. I love it. And I love your journey about how you really noticed, you did the classes, you went to government, and you changed a little bit sector, topic wise.
And then just noticed, I think a lot of us get here where it’s like public health can feel somewhat removed. And then when you work on a topic like mine was sexual violence prevention. Yours was maybe opioid where you really have to remember, these statistics are people, that can really be a lot emotionally, yeah.
Sujani: It is. Yeah, I think there’s just like you sometimes have to force yourself because I think when you’re just every single day looking at stats, running models or doing all of that stuff, you can forget that these numbers are people. And I found myself going maybe weeks and months just thinking about it as numbers, putting together these reports. And then once in a while I’ll read a news article and that’ll be so emotionally draining about the opioid overdose. And then connecting that back with my work or when I was in the coroner’s office just going through all these death reports.
There’ll be a story that just kind of hits you and you’re like, “Holy crap.” These are individuals, and I think the ones that were kind of really put a lot of emotional stress on me were when I read stories of individuals who were in their late teens to early 20s. Because you just think about, they just have so much life ahead of them. But yeah, I think as I alluded to that was when I started having conversation with a friend of mine who’s a physician in Australia.
Because I kind of was telling her all of these ‘symptoms’ of just feeling exhausted, not wanting to do stuff, not feeling motivated. And she just quickly was like, “I think you’re burned out.” I was like, “No, I don’t think so.” Burnout is for nurses who are on the frontlines and seeing actual patients. And then she started sending me articles and then we talked about it. And that’s when I kind of started realizing that’s what was happening to me as well and that emotional strain.
And I think as public health professionals we don’t recognize or not as easily.
Marissa: I totally agree. I think the experience of burnout is really a spectrum. But I do think that in public health we really think of it as, well, people on the frontlines in this way and the crisis response center, and doing this are burnout. We don’t really see the spectrum. And the way I like to think about burnout is it’s the mental and emotional exhaustion.
And that can happen no matter what you’re doing which is why I also love to talk about rest as emotional and mental rest because that can be the antidote or the counterpart to the stress, and the overwhelm, and the frustration, the resentment or whatever else comes up that you might get stuck in and then feel burnout. So, I’m curious for you, and we can go back but where you are now, how would you define rest now for you personally?
Sujani: Yeah. I think that period of my life I took a lot of active steps and intentional steps to really, I’d say reconfigure my life and my perspective on things. I had an episode where I almost passed out. I went to the ER during that period, and I thought something else was wrong. And then the ER doctor was like, “No, but I think you have just inflammation as a result of stress induced inflammation around your head which is what’s causing this blackout period.”
And there were a number of weeks where I couldn’t go to work, and I couldn’t even look at a computer. I couldn’t read. I couldn’t sit under the light. And I just had to lie down and sleep. And I just remember thinking, I cannot have this be the rest of my life. That’s when I kind of got into journaling, meditating. And I think up until that point my relationship with sleep was also not great. I used to think of it as an unproductive activity.
Marissa: You’re not alone. I think many people have that, yeah.
Sujani: And I think that period of my life is when I started reading a lot more. Arianna Huffington talks a lot about sleep. She has a great book and I think she had a similar experience where she just dropped flat on her table after exhaustion. And then her research around sleep. I think she wrote a book. And that’s where she kind of talks about prior to, I think recently they used to think that sleep was this process where your body just kind of stops. And then when you wake up you kind of start again from where you left off.
But I think more recent research tells you that the moment that you’re sleeping, it’s like going into a garage for your car and getting maintenance. So, there’s so much that happens when you’re sleeping. And I think those kind of just resources, I was actively looking into, kind of convinced me that sleep was actually productive. So, I completely changed my outlook on sleep. I prioritized it more. I prioritized intentional breaks. I think your question was like, “How do I define rest now?”
And I think that period and it wasn’t too long ago, it was 2018, 2019 is when that happened. Ever since then I am just all about if I – obviously I’m not great at it but if I’m feeling myself unmotivated, tired, just not wanting to do anything. I will tell myself I think I’m burned out. And that was very key to identify it. And then intentionally say, “I’m not going to do any work. I’m not going to sit in front of the computer and pretend I’m working even if I have something to do.” I will push deadlines if I have that ability.
I will cancel meetings if I can, just a lot more reflective about my mental and emotional state. And I will go to sleep. I will take naps. I will go for walks. I will eat good food. I will watch a TV show if I have to. And I think now I do those things intentionally and I think that’s where I am at with rest. I think it’s a lot more healthy now than it was a few years ago for sure.
Marissa: I think there is this common belief that rest is unproductive. And because we’re so socialized around this productivity hustle culture that idea that rest is unproductive, for most of us is a hell no. And yes, sleep, your body does so much when you’re asleep. Your brain is consolidating memories, muscles are being repaired, your blood pressure lowers. So much happens when you sleep. And sleep obviously is just one example of rest. But it sounds like to me what you’re sharing, and you can let me know if this resonates.
But what I hear you saying is part of your rest philosophy, your definition now is you listen to your body, you make intentional choice. And you’ve kind of made a commitment to yourself.
Sujani: Yeah, for sure. I think I kind of am understanding my body a lot more. And I now can say, yeah, maybe I told this person I was going to send this email today. And I just know that if I sit in front of the computer I will take maybe two hours to write one sentence and that’s not going to be effective use of time. So, what I will do is overcommunicate to say, “I know I was supposed to send this to you, I’m going to do it tomorrow.” And then after a good rest whether that’s sleep, whether that’s a walk, whether that’s something else. I will see that I can get that email out in two minutes.
So yeah, I guess you can call it commitment or just knowing my body a lot better, knowing me a lot better and maybe that comes with maturity. But maybe it also comes with intentionally saying, “How do I want to use my time? Do I want to sit in front of the computer for two hours and just get this email out because I told that person I wanted to get that email out? Or should I take care of myself a lot more?” And I think it’s asking yourself that bigger picture.
It's like if this email doesn’t go out by July 28, 11:59pm, is this going to be the end of the world? No. And I think it’s just about putting things into perspective. So yeah, I think it’s a commitment, I haven’t labeled it but that’s probably what it is, committing myself.
Marissa: Yeah. And it is, there’s the awareness piece you’re talking about, the other day, I am able to tune into it now but a couple of years ago I couldn’t where when I’m staring at the computer for a certain length. I get this mental fog. Where I can feel my head is, it’s not a headache but it’s okay, I’m full, and I wouldn’t even recognize that before. Now I can recognize it. And the next step is making a choice to be like, “Okay, I’m going to step away.” And sometimes that’s the hardest choice to make and to do and listen to that.
Sujani: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, yeah, we’re recording this at the end of July. And I feel like I have had this period over the past few weeks where I just really can’t get myself motivated to work on a lot of the projects I set out to work on for PH Spot. And so, I think previously I would have been so hard on myself. But these days I am telling myself, “It’s okay, just chug along with the pieces that you know you have to do.” And that too in a very healthy way. Making sure I’m not a bottleneck to folks on my team or things like that.
And finding elements of those projects that do energize me. And I think just being a lot more aware about where my emotional and mental, I guess, yeah, my ruler, or whatever you want to call it is kind of sitting at for the day. And seek out things that will re-energize me, whether that’s a walk with my family. And I remember reading, yeah, maybe I was reading something where rest for one person is not the same as another, or self-care for example. Self-care for one person can be a tub of ice-cream in bed with Netflix all day.
But for somebody else it might be biking to a forest or something. And really you need to figure out what that is for you. Because I think I thought traditionally that word self-care was about pampering yourself or staying in bed all day. Physically just not moving, but I realized that doesn’t energize me. If I sit in front of the TV for hours and hours binge watching a TV show, I feel horrible by the end of it. I know for me it’s maybe going out and seeing my family, or going for a walk with my family. Or just doing simple things like that, just sitting outdoors connecting with nature.
I find myself get re-energized that way, or connecting with other fellow entrepreneurs like yourself. I find myself uplifted with energy at the end of the conversations. Sometimes podcasts I will listen to or read books and those kind of energize me as well. So yeah, I think it’s just finding those things that are going to help you kind of feel rested. But that definition sometimes I have to choose what that means for that day.
Marissa: Yeah. I mean I think rest is different person to person but it’s also different for each of us every single day, it’s fluid for ourselves. And my philosophy is I don’t think rest is a specific definition. I think we define it for ourselves. And that can change over time or over our career, over day-to-day. We’ve been sold this idea that rest is this limited finite thing, it’s a checklist, it’s rigid. And I just don’t think that’s true. I just want to blow that shit up. I just think it can be whatever it is to you and that might change over time. And that’s totally fine.
And the other thing you alluded to which is I love and the way I heard it was one form of rest is also being kind to yourself when you notice you’re not motivated, or you’re not feeling good. I think sometimes what makes it harder is when we are trying to listen to our body or take time off. And then we’re just assholes to ourself and beating ourselves up and judging ourselves which is very human. We all do it. I still do it. But that self-kindness can also be an act of rest.
Sujani: Yeah, absolutely. I remember kind of our earlier years of building PH Spot. I would set a deadline for a project that we’re launching. And in anticipation of that deadline my stress level would just increase. And previously I actually had physical changes in my body when my stress would increase as I neared deadlines. And those would be my back would tighten up. My breathing would be much shorter. I couldn’t sleep. Yeah, and I remember my husband pointing out one day, was like, “You put these deadlines on yourself. You can change them.”
Marissa: That’s a hard truth to hear.
Sujani: Yeah, that’s true. Does my community really care? It’s not a date that’s been communicated. Obviously big launches when we communicate the date I make sure we launch on those dates. But these are dates that I’ve committed to. And no one’s going to know if I launch this Tuesday or next Tuesday for a very good reason. If I’m procrastinating and I’m avoiding putting a project out there into the world. I know I can recognize that. But this is like I have things going on. And I’d be like, “Oh my God.”
I remember I would – essentially I think going back to one of the episodes that I listened to on your podcast. And I wrote about it on my LinkedIn post recently. It’s like we set ourselves up for failure. We write this to-do list, and we say, “Okay, this is everything I’m going to do today.” And you know as you’re writing it, there is absolutely no way you’re going to do it. So why are you going to be unkind to yourself by setting yourself up for failure before you even start?
Marissa: It’s like a perfectionist fantasy though. We fantasize about being able to do that even though we know realistically it’s not going to happen.
Sujani: Yeah. And now that I think about those previous years, I’m just like, “Yeah, I was not kind to myself.” Why did I do this to myself? And it is a part of actively intentionally going out and seeking these resources because like many things, these are not taught in school. So really as elementary I mean there are things that should be taught which is how do you take care of yourself. How do you make sure you’re kind to yourself. Meditation is another thing that I think should be taught as early as possible in school.
So yeah, to your point, it’s about being kind. I absolutely think so. And I think it’s not an easy thing to do which is so bizarre when you think about it. We know how to be kind to our parents, or our siblings, or our best friends. But when it comes to yourself we hesitate, or we don’t even know how to do it, or we don’t even know we’re not doing it.
Marissa: We’re hardest on ourselves, for sure, yeah. So, we’ve talked a little bit about your journey with burnout and rest. Where you are now, I would love for you to share with the listeners some ways that you’re resting and some ways that you navigate the challenges that come with trying to rest.
Sujani: So as of last year, I became a mom so everything I had set myself up with my perfect schedules and everything just went out the door. So, these days I think the one thing I do prioritize is sleep. So, I think yeah, as soon as my son was born, the number one advice I got from a lot of people was sleep when your baby sleeps. And I think whether you have a baby or not, sleep is very important. So, I made sure to get a lot of sleep and we do have periods where sleep is compromised because he’s having a bad day or teething, or things like that.
But if I’m feeling tired I am not ashamed to get a nap in the middle of the day, maybe multiple naps.
Marissa: Yes, pro naps.
Sujani: Yes, I am big on naps, and I did it even before my son was born. I was a master power napper. I could set my clock for 21 minutes and rest, take a nap and then wake up feeling great. And so now I don’t have that perfect schedule for my napping. But whenever I am tired I do make sure to rest. I’ve gotten better. My husband and I do communicate with each other when we do need to take a break, well, he needs to take a nap, I need to take a nap, we need to step out, whatever that may be.
So napping is number one on my list and I wouldn’t say the second one is as great, we’re not as great but we, I think in the past couple of weeks we’ve gotten a lot better is getting out and kind of going for walks. I think previously I kind of thought, going out is nice but then started reading or learning a bit more about just connecting with nature and how that is so essential for us as human beings. And I think for me when I see the science behind things I’m a lot more convinced to do it. And so, we make sure we go out, take walks every single day.
We’ll maybe skip out today, I think today was a bit difficult, or yesterday my son got his vaccinations. So, there are some days that we won’t do it. But it think 98% of the time we’ll go for a walk at least once a day. And so, I think walk, sleep, feeding myself, making sure I am eating, I am not hungry. Those would be my top three. I wish I could do some of the other things that I used to do like meditate, journal, work out regularly. But I try not to be too hard on myself. And that’s also a huge change. I think previously I’d have this habit tracker.
I’d need to make sure I meditate, journal, work out, go for a walk, go for this, eat this, eat that. But I’ve certainly learned to be a lot more relaxed and kinder to myself and know what my top things are that are going to get me to that 90% and that 10% is bonus which are workouts and meditating. I know meditating is a gamechanger for myself but it’s just not something I’m able to do on a regular basis. But in the past couple of days, I’ve tried to do it even for five minutes right before I get out of my bed. So yeah, those are some.
Marissa: Yeah. I mean here’s the thing. I really think committing to a few things that are restful for you and not trying to do it all actually will get you more rested than trying to do it all. And there’s no hierarchy. There’s no this type of rest is better than this rest. If you right now are prioritizing sleep and eating, and even going on walks, that is amazing. And someone else maybe sleep is not their number one rest priority. And maybe their number one rest priority is, I don’t know.
Sujani: Working out.
Marissa: Yeah, working out. Who knows? And it will change over time but we kind of take our mindset with being productive and apply it to rest sometimes, like how can we be the most productive at rest. And that’s also not the goal. It’s just what is restful for you and what is feasible and doable for you? A lot of times I say the purpose of rest is to not disrupt your life. It’s to integrate it into your life. And so, something where you are where sleep and nourishing yourself with food, that is integrating. And maybe trying to do a million other things would be really just more disruptive.
Sujani: Yeah. No, that’s true. I think one other thing is communicating with whoever you live with to help you get that rest. We’ve gotten so much better. And I think probably because we have a baby that we both know when the other person needs that quick break and we’ll kind of take the baby for a little bit. So, I think that communication piece is key. And I didn’t do that in the early days because I felt like I needed to be there with my baby every single moment he was awake.
But recently like, “Okay, you guys go down. I just need to close my eyes for 30 more minutes.” And then shut the door, put on the noise maker, and just get that additional 30 minutes. And so, I think, yeah, if you don’t communicate with whoever you’re living with or even maybe you’re not living with them, and other people are expecting to see you at a certain time. And I think it’s okay to say, “Okay, I just need a few more hours to take a nap”, or do whatever you need to. So that you show up to the people that mean a lot to you in the best way possible.
Marissa: Yeah, probably. I wrote down as you were talking, communication facilitates rest. And that’s whether it’s with a partner or a coworker, or a family member, or a friend and yourself. Communicating with yourself too. And I think part of rest is decision making. It’s choice and that also means communicating, whether it’s with yourself or the other people you’re interacting with in your life.
Sujani: Yeah. And you kind of declare it to yourself what you’re doing and that kind of helps too. I remember when we last chatted, Marissa, we talked about those phrases like I am choosing to rest. I am choosing to spend time with my baby. And I told you I wrote those down on sticky notes and it’s still hanging off my monitor right now. And I’m just thinking about other things I choose. And they could change throughout the day. And the past couple of days I’m like, “I’m choosing to keep my house messy.”
Marissa: Yes, I love it.
Sujani: Most days it’s nice and clean and that just helps us be more energized, a crowded house doesn’t facilitate creative work or whatnot. But some days you’re just like, “I’m going to choose not to do whatever.” And some days the floor is just terrible because my son is starting to eat now. And so, there’s food everywhere. If you walked into my house it looks like it hasn’t been mopped for three weeks but it’s been vacuumed twice a day. Some days I’m just like, “You know what, whatever. It looks horrible, we’ll figure it out at some point this week.” And that’s okay.
Marissa: I definitely agree with that. I leave stuff around the house a lot. And I could pick it up for sure and eventually I do. But what’s the benefit of beating myself up and stressing out over it versus just letting it be there and allowing that space. Because we all have a lot going on whether it’s with family, or just our own stuff, or work. To expect perfection in all areas is definitely not an act of rest.
Sujani: No, it’s not. And yeah, I think going back to that phrase that you said, communication facilitates rest. And I think the first person you need to communicate that with is yourself, I think, yeah.
Marissa: Totally, yeah.
Sujani: Yeah. I know that’s been huge for myself. It’s telling myself, stop being unkind, stop having these high expectations and setting yourself up for failure. And just know why you’re doing what you’re doing and be okay with it. And yeah, keep it simple.
Marissa: I mean I really think especially the more I do this work, the more I work with people one-on-one, the building of a rest practice and redefining rest for yourself is really just like the building of a relationship with yourself. And becoming more aligned with yourself and integrity with yourself. And trusting yourself and knowing yourself. It’s really just about the relationship with yourself. Which is the most important relationship ultimately.
Sujani: No, absolutely, totally agree, yeah. I don’t have more to add to that.
Marissa: Okay. Well, on that note, is there anything before we close that you want to share with folks whether it’s a note about rest, or where they can find you and connect with you?
Sujani: Yeah. I am hanging out on LinkedIn these days. I have again chosen that to be the social media platform that keeps me the most sane. So, I’ve created those boundaries for myself so you can certainly search me up at Sujani Sivanantharajah where I think, what is it? Yeah, you should be able to find it.
Marissa: We’ll leave a link in the show notes.
Sujani: There you go, yeah. And yeah, if you want to connect, please add a note, and tell me that you came from this podcast because I always like to know, who’s adding me. And it’s just easier to accept when I know where people are coming in from. And yeah, phspot.org. That’s if you’re a public health professional and you’re looking for resources to just help you build your career. You can find us at phspot.org. And yeah, I’m sure Marissa will include that link as well.
And I think when it comes to rest, I don’t know, I kind of think back to what if I had kind of had this realization or had built these practices much earlier in my career or my life could I have had a more healthier relationship with school, and work, and even building PH Spot? And I often think, yeah, I probably could have. I mean I’m not saying I regretted the journey that I’ve took to date. I do know that it could have been easier on myself if I had done it a lot earlier. So just encourage everyone to really prioritize yourself, your mind, your body, your soul, whatever it is.
Seek out the help, seek out support, and you don’t have to do it alone. I think community is a huge aspect of figuring out rest for yourself. And yeah, and I think great resources that Marissa has. And I know it’s added to where I am today. And just very grateful to have spent this time with you.
Marissa: Thank you. That’s such a kind of note to leave this episode on. I’m so glad you could join us. And also, PH Spot has a podcast you can listen to and hear about career journeys. So, we’ll link that as well. And with that we’ll let everyone go, hope you all have a great week. Thanks for tuning in.
If you found this episode helpful then you have to check out my coaching program where I provide you individualized support to create a life centered around rest. Head on over to mckoolcoaching.com, that’s M-C-K-O-O-L coaching.com to learn more.
Hi everyone. How are you? Can you believe it’s almost October? I can’t believe it. I’m really excited to announce a new four part mini-series we’re doing on the podcast right here this fall. We are doing a series called How We Rest where I am interviewing four different folks in public health about their journey with rest. So, you can see that rest is unique and personal to all of us. That you get to define and decide what rest is for you.
Through these interviews with these four amazing public health professionals, you’re going to be able to hear from them and notice the similarities and where you can relate. But also, the differences and learn from them. These four professionals are amazing people who are doing amazing work in the world just like you, who also have challenges with getting rest just like you. And my goal is that you really are able to listen to these peers and colleagues and feel connected and feel empowered.
And know that we’re all in this together in this journey of doing great work in the world but also trying to do right by ourselves and prioritize ourselves. So, each month for the rest of the year we will air one of these interviews. And today is the first of this four part series with a new friend of mine, Sujani Siva. She is the founder of PH Spotlight which she’ll talk more about in the episode. And she’s a former epidemiologist who has worked in the federal government in Canada which again she’ll share more about that.
And we talk about rest from a science and sleep perspective, all the way to self-kindness and communication. So, with that I can’t wait for you to hear the episode. Let’s jump in.
Marissa: You’re not ready for this, it’s going to be such a good conversation. I’m so excited to have a new friend on the show. Sujani, do you want to introduce yourself?
Sujani: Hi, Marissa. And hello friends, yeah, my name is Sujani. And I don’t know how Marissa and I connected, probably through the world of the internet which is amazing.
Marissa: LinkedIn, yeah.
Sujani: Yeah, LinkedIn, there you go. I have made so many great friends through the internet. And so, I’m grateful to be here to be able to speak with Marissa and her community. So yeah, I in general, I think I call myself a public health professional. I was trained in epidemiology and as of recent I’d say maybe in the past couple of years I’ve kind of been transitioning out of that role and going into the space of policy, and partnerships, and collaboration. That’s kind of one part of my life.
And the other part is I am the founder of phspot.org. It’s a career development platform for public health professionals around the world. And our mission is to help build dream public health careers.
Marissa: Awesome. Can you share just a little bit about your public health journey? So, I mean you’ve shared a little bit, you were trained in epidemiology. But so, folks listening can have an idea of where you’ve been and what you’ve worked on.
Sujani: Yeah. No, absolutely. I’ll go back to maybe undergrad, and I thought I was going into dentistry when I started undergrad. And so, biology, health studies, all of those courses. And I’m sitting there in the first year absolutely not loving physics, calculus, all of the prerequisite courses.
Marissa: Our stories are so similar.
Sujani: Yeah, anatomy, I’m like, “I can’t memorize these things. I cannot connect with any of these courses.” And luckily the universe had me take an elective course and it was called Plagues and People. And that’s where I discovered this idea of pandemics, epidemics, population level health and I was like, “Okay, I think I can get behind this. I can feel myself connected to kind of the mission behind public health.” There was one course at the beginning of our course syllabus.
I remember the professor had included this beautiful poem. It’s called Don’t Ask Who the Bell Tolls for, it Tolls for Thee. And kind of talks about this idea of as individuals we’re not an island of ourselves. We are connected to this bigger whole. And I felt myself – I think at the time I probably didn’t have the words, but there was some sort of connection to that poem. And that’s when I kind of started looking into this idea of public health. I had a friend who knew more about epidemiology. He told me about it.
I started taking more courses, shifted my major from a biology focused major to more of a health studies and biology which then exposed me to more courses. And then nearing graduation I was like, “What am I going to do with this undergraduate degree?” So, I started looking into master’s level programs on public health, on epidemiology. Just reading about it, I felt more of a connection. I went down to do my master’s in public health at the University of Saskatchewan. I’m based in Canada so that’s where that is.
Yeah, I took more epi courses. And then upon graduation within about four months I kind of ‘landed’ the dream role that I had wanted when I started grad school and that was as an outbreak epidemiologist with the federal government here in Canada. And so, I was part of the team that was monitoring and responding to multijurisdictional food borne and zoonotic enteric illness outbreaks here in Canada. And so, we not only worked on outbreaks, but we also supported national projects, strengthened outbreak response and such.
And I did that about for five years, great people, mentors, great learning, I think it was such an important foundation for my public health training just because of all the great people I had met. After five years I kind of wanted a bit of a change, so did public health surveillance work specifically in the area of opioid overdose surveillance in a specific province. And then I did that for about a year and a half and that became emotionally intense, just kind of looking at the death reports and connecting the numbers and the stats to actual people.
And so, all of that was quite emotional and I’m sure I will get back to this period of my life when we get into today’s topic about rest because that’s when I discovered burnout and what that is, put words to what I was feeling. So, at that time I was like, “Okay, it’s time for me to move on.” Then went into more of a policy role. Started thinking about, okay, where are my strengths? What is it that I enjoy? What is it that I don’t? And kind of saw myself not building much, I guess I didn’t see myself building a decade more work in epidemiology.
So, kind of transitioned away from epidemiology. I knew I loved connecting with people, building partnerships, collaborations, so that’s kind of the role that I took on. And then the pandemic happened, worked a bit kind of around the epidemic and supporting public health data related work. I’ll kind of rewind a little bit and go back to when I started working after grad school I had a lot of people reach out asking about my journey. After speaking with a lot of individuals, PH Spot was born as a platform for me to connect other public health professionals to each other.
Because I felt at that time when I was speaking with individuals it was one sided, biased kind of perspective that they were getting. They were just hearing my story. I only took this one single path. And so, I thought it was important for everyone to hear each other’s kind of journeys. And so, PH Spot was officially born in 2017. So, I ran that on the side in addition to working as an epidemiologist. And then today as we are recording, it’s the summer of 2022, most if not all of my time when I’m not with my newborn baby is spent on PH Spot.
And yeah, I’m just very excited for the community that we’re building around PH Spot. And all the great collaborations that we’re doing with that.
Marissa: There are so many parallels in your story and my story. As you’re talking I’m like, oh my gosh, do we have the same story? What exposed me to public health wasn’t elective. And it was about HIV which is not plagues but it’s still like an endemic, pandemic and stuff. And also landing my dream job in government after grad school and ending up burned out. It’s just like, wow, so many parallels. I love it. And I love your journey about how you really noticed, you did the classes, you went to government, and you changed a little bit sector, topic wise.
And then just noticed, I think a lot of us get here where it’s like public health can feel somewhat removed. And then when you work on a topic like mine was sexual violence prevention. Yours was maybe opioid where you really have to remember, these statistics are people, that can really be a lot emotionally, yeah.
Sujani: It is. Yeah, I think there’s just like you sometimes have to force yourself because I think when you’re just every single day looking at stats, running models or doing all of that stuff, you can forget that these numbers are people. And I found myself going maybe weeks and months just thinking about it as numbers, putting together these reports. And then once in a while I’ll read a news article and that’ll be so emotionally draining about the opioid overdose. And then connecting that back with my work or when I was in the coroner’s office just going through all these death reports.
There’ll be a story that just kind of hits you and you’re like, “Holy crap.” These are individuals, and I think the ones that were kind of really put a lot of emotional stress on me were when I read stories of individuals who were in their late teens to early 20s. Because you just think about, they just have so much life ahead of them. But yeah, I think as I alluded to that was when I started having conversation with a friend of mine who’s a physician in Australia.
Because I kind of was telling her all of these ‘symptoms’ of just feeling exhausted, not wanting to do stuff, not feeling motivated. And she just quickly was like, “I think you’re burned out.” I was like, “No, I don’t think so.” Burnout is for nurses who are on the frontlines and seeing actual patients. And then she started sending me articles and then we talked about it. And that’s when I kind of started realizing that’s what was happening to me as well and that emotional strain.
And I think as public health professionals we don’t recognize or not as easily.
Marissa: I totally agree. I think the experience of burnout is really a spectrum. But I do think that in public health we really think of it as, well, people on the frontlines in this way and the crisis response center, and doing this are burnout. We don’t really see the spectrum. And the way I like to think about burnout is it’s the mental and emotional exhaustion.
And that can happen no matter what you’re doing which is why I also love to talk about rest as emotional and mental rest because that can be the antidote or the counterpart to the stress, and the overwhelm, and the frustration, the resentment or whatever else comes up that you might get stuck in and then feel burnout. So, I’m curious for you, and we can go back but where you are now, how would you define rest now for you personally?
Sujani: Yeah. I think that period of my life I took a lot of active steps and intentional steps to really, I’d say reconfigure my life and my perspective on things. I had an episode where I almost passed out. I went to the ER during that period, and I thought something else was wrong. And then the ER doctor was like, “No, but I think you have just inflammation as a result of stress induced inflammation around your head which is what’s causing this blackout period.”
And there were a number of weeks where I couldn’t go to work, and I couldn’t even look at a computer. I couldn’t read. I couldn’t sit under the light. And I just had to lie down and sleep. And I just remember thinking, I cannot have this be the rest of my life. That’s when I kind of got into journaling, meditating. And I think up until that point my relationship with sleep was also not great. I used to think of it as an unproductive activity.
Marissa: You’re not alone. I think many people have that, yeah.
Sujani: And I think that period of my life is when I started reading a lot more. Arianna Huffington talks a lot about sleep. She has a great book and I think she had a similar experience where she just dropped flat on her table after exhaustion. And then her research around sleep. I think she wrote a book. And that’s where she kind of talks about prior to, I think recently they used to think that sleep was this process where your body just kind of stops. And then when you wake up you kind of start again from where you left off.
But I think more recent research tells you that the moment that you’re sleeping, it’s like going into a garage for your car and getting maintenance. So, there’s so much that happens when you’re sleeping. And I think those kind of just resources, I was actively looking into, kind of convinced me that sleep was actually productive. So, I completely changed my outlook on sleep. I prioritized it more. I prioritized intentional breaks. I think your question was like, “How do I define rest now?”
And I think that period and it wasn’t too long ago, it was 2018, 2019 is when that happened. Ever since then I am just all about if I – obviously I’m not great at it but if I’m feeling myself unmotivated, tired, just not wanting to do anything. I will tell myself I think I’m burned out. And that was very key to identify it. And then intentionally say, “I’m not going to do any work. I’m not going to sit in front of the computer and pretend I’m working even if I have something to do.” I will push deadlines if I have that ability.
I will cancel meetings if I can, just a lot more reflective about my mental and emotional state. And I will go to sleep. I will take naps. I will go for walks. I will eat good food. I will watch a TV show if I have to. And I think now I do those things intentionally and I think that’s where I am at with rest. I think it’s a lot more healthy now than it was a few years ago for sure.
Marissa: I think there is this common belief that rest is unproductive. And because we’re so socialized around this productivity hustle culture that idea that rest is unproductive, for most of us is a hell no. And yes, sleep, your body does so much when you’re asleep. Your brain is consolidating memories, muscles are being repaired, your blood pressure lowers. So much happens when you sleep. And sleep obviously is just one example of rest. But it sounds like to me what you’re sharing, and you can let me know if this resonates.
But what I hear you saying is part of your rest philosophy, your definition now is you listen to your body, you make intentional choice. And you’ve kind of made a commitment to yourself.
Sujani: Yeah, for sure. I think I kind of am understanding my body a lot more. And I now can say, yeah, maybe I told this person I was going to send this email today. And I just know that if I sit in front of the computer I will take maybe two hours to write one sentence and that’s not going to be effective use of time. So, what I will do is overcommunicate to say, “I know I was supposed to send this to you, I’m going to do it tomorrow.” And then after a good rest whether that’s sleep, whether that’s a walk, whether that’s something else. I will see that I can get that email out in two minutes.
So yeah, I guess you can call it commitment or just knowing my body a lot better, knowing me a lot better and maybe that comes with maturity. But maybe it also comes with intentionally saying, “How do I want to use my time? Do I want to sit in front of the computer for two hours and just get this email out because I told that person I wanted to get that email out? Or should I take care of myself a lot more?” And I think it’s asking yourself that bigger picture.
It's like if this email doesn’t go out by July 28, 11:59pm, is this going to be the end of the world? No. And I think it’s just about putting things into perspective. So yeah, I think it’s a commitment, I haven’t labeled it but that’s probably what it is, committing myself.
Marissa: Yeah. And it is, there’s the awareness piece you’re talking about, the other day, I am able to tune into it now but a couple of years ago I couldn’t where when I’m staring at the computer for a certain length. I get this mental fog. Where I can feel my head is, it’s not a headache but it’s okay, I’m full, and I wouldn’t even recognize that before. Now I can recognize it. And the next step is making a choice to be like, “Okay, I’m going to step away.” And sometimes that’s the hardest choice to make and to do and listen to that.
Sujani: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, yeah, we’re recording this at the end of July. And I feel like I have had this period over the past few weeks where I just really can’t get myself motivated to work on a lot of the projects I set out to work on for PH Spot. And so, I think previously I would have been so hard on myself. But these days I am telling myself, “It’s okay, just chug along with the pieces that you know you have to do.” And that too in a very healthy way. Making sure I’m not a bottleneck to folks on my team or things like that.
And finding elements of those projects that do energize me. And I think just being a lot more aware about where my emotional and mental, I guess, yeah, my ruler, or whatever you want to call it is kind of sitting at for the day. And seek out things that will re-energize me, whether that’s a walk with my family. And I remember reading, yeah, maybe I was reading something where rest for one person is not the same as another, or self-care for example. Self-care for one person can be a tub of ice-cream in bed with Netflix all day.
But for somebody else it might be biking to a forest or something. And really you need to figure out what that is for you. Because I think I thought traditionally that word self-care was about pampering yourself or staying in bed all day. Physically just not moving, but I realized that doesn’t energize me. If I sit in front of the TV for hours and hours binge watching a TV show, I feel horrible by the end of it. I know for me it’s maybe going out and seeing my family, or going for a walk with my family. Or just doing simple things like that, just sitting outdoors connecting with nature.
I find myself get re-energized that way, or connecting with other fellow entrepreneurs like yourself. I find myself uplifted with energy at the end of the conversations. Sometimes podcasts I will listen to or read books and those kind of energize me as well. So yeah, I think it’s just finding those things that are going to help you kind of feel rested. But that definition sometimes I have to choose what that means for that day.
Marissa: Yeah. I mean I think rest is different person to person but it’s also different for each of us every single day, it’s fluid for ourselves. And my philosophy is I don’t think rest is a specific definition. I think we define it for ourselves. And that can change over time or over our career, over day-to-day. We’ve been sold this idea that rest is this limited finite thing, it’s a checklist, it’s rigid. And I just don’t think that’s true. I just want to blow that shit up. I just think it can be whatever it is to you and that might change over time. And that’s totally fine.
And the other thing you alluded to which is I love and the way I heard it was one form of rest is also being kind to yourself when you notice you’re not motivated, or you’re not feeling good. I think sometimes what makes it harder is when we are trying to listen to our body or take time off. And then we’re just assholes to ourself and beating ourselves up and judging ourselves which is very human. We all do it. I still do it. But that self-kindness can also be an act of rest.
Sujani: Yeah, absolutely. I remember kind of our earlier years of building PH Spot. I would set a deadline for a project that we’re launching. And in anticipation of that deadline my stress level would just increase. And previously I actually had physical changes in my body when my stress would increase as I neared deadlines. And those would be my back would tighten up. My breathing would be much shorter. I couldn’t sleep. Yeah, and I remember my husband pointing out one day, was like, “You put these deadlines on yourself. You can change them.”
Marissa: That’s a hard truth to hear.
Sujani: Yeah, that’s true. Does my community really care? It’s not a date that’s been communicated. Obviously big launches when we communicate the date I make sure we launch on those dates. But these are dates that I’ve committed to. And no one’s going to know if I launch this Tuesday or next Tuesday for a very good reason. If I’m procrastinating and I’m avoiding putting a project out there into the world. I know I can recognize that. But this is like I have things going on. And I’d be like, “Oh my God.”
I remember I would – essentially I think going back to one of the episodes that I listened to on your podcast. And I wrote about it on my LinkedIn post recently. It’s like we set ourselves up for failure. We write this to-do list, and we say, “Okay, this is everything I’m going to do today.” And you know as you’re writing it, there is absolutely no way you’re going to do it. So why are you going to be unkind to yourself by setting yourself up for failure before you even start?
Marissa: It’s like a perfectionist fantasy though. We fantasize about being able to do that even though we know realistically it’s not going to happen.
Sujani: Yeah. And now that I think about those previous years, I’m just like, “Yeah, I was not kind to myself.” Why did I do this to myself? And it is a part of actively intentionally going out and seeking these resources because like many things, these are not taught in school. So really as elementary I mean there are things that should be taught which is how do you take care of yourself. How do you make sure you’re kind to yourself. Meditation is another thing that I think should be taught as early as possible in school.
So yeah, to your point, it’s about being kind. I absolutely think so. And I think it’s not an easy thing to do which is so bizarre when you think about it. We know how to be kind to our parents, or our siblings, or our best friends. But when it comes to yourself we hesitate, or we don’t even know how to do it, or we don’t even know we’re not doing it.
Marissa: We’re hardest on ourselves, for sure, yeah. So, we’ve talked a little bit about your journey with burnout and rest. Where you are now, I would love for you to share with the listeners some ways that you’re resting and some ways that you navigate the challenges that come with trying to rest.
Sujani: So as of last year, I became a mom so everything I had set myself up with my perfect schedules and everything just went out the door. So, these days I think the one thing I do prioritize is sleep. So, I think yeah, as soon as my son was born, the number one advice I got from a lot of people was sleep when your baby sleeps. And I think whether you have a baby or not, sleep is very important. So, I made sure to get a lot of sleep and we do have periods where sleep is compromised because he’s having a bad day or teething, or things like that.
But if I’m feeling tired I am not ashamed to get a nap in the middle of the day, maybe multiple naps.
Marissa: Yes, pro naps.
Sujani: Yes, I am big on naps, and I did it even before my son was born. I was a master power napper. I could set my clock for 21 minutes and rest, take a nap and then wake up feeling great. And so now I don’t have that perfect schedule for my napping. But whenever I am tired I do make sure to rest. I’ve gotten better. My husband and I do communicate with each other when we do need to take a break, well, he needs to take a nap, I need to take a nap, we need to step out, whatever that may be.
So napping is number one on my list and I wouldn’t say the second one is as great, we’re not as great but we, I think in the past couple of weeks we’ve gotten a lot better is getting out and kind of going for walks. I think previously I kind of thought, going out is nice but then started reading or learning a bit more about just connecting with nature and how that is so essential for us as human beings. And I think for me when I see the science behind things I’m a lot more convinced to do it. And so, we make sure we go out, take walks every single day.
We’ll maybe skip out today, I think today was a bit difficult, or yesterday my son got his vaccinations. So, there are some days that we won’t do it. But it think 98% of the time we’ll go for a walk at least once a day. And so, I think walk, sleep, feeding myself, making sure I am eating, I am not hungry. Those would be my top three. I wish I could do some of the other things that I used to do like meditate, journal, work out regularly. But I try not to be too hard on myself. And that’s also a huge change. I think previously I’d have this habit tracker.
I’d need to make sure I meditate, journal, work out, go for a walk, go for this, eat this, eat that. But I’ve certainly learned to be a lot more relaxed and kinder to myself and know what my top things are that are going to get me to that 90% and that 10% is bonus which are workouts and meditating. I know meditating is a gamechanger for myself but it’s just not something I’m able to do on a regular basis. But in the past couple of days, I’ve tried to do it even for five minutes right before I get out of my bed. So yeah, those are some.
Marissa: Yeah. I mean here’s the thing. I really think committing to a few things that are restful for you and not trying to do it all actually will get you more rested than trying to do it all. And there’s no hierarchy. There’s no this type of rest is better than this rest. If you right now are prioritizing sleep and eating, and even going on walks, that is amazing. And someone else maybe sleep is not their number one rest priority. And maybe their number one rest priority is, I don’t know.
Sujani: Working out.
Marissa: Yeah, working out. Who knows? And it will change over time but we kind of take our mindset with being productive and apply it to rest sometimes, like how can we be the most productive at rest. And that’s also not the goal. It’s just what is restful for you and what is feasible and doable for you? A lot of times I say the purpose of rest is to not disrupt your life. It’s to integrate it into your life. And so, something where you are where sleep and nourishing yourself with food, that is integrating. And maybe trying to do a million other things would be really just more disruptive.
Sujani: Yeah. No, that’s true. I think one other thing is communicating with whoever you live with to help you get that rest. We’ve gotten so much better. And I think probably because we have a baby that we both know when the other person needs that quick break and we’ll kind of take the baby for a little bit. So, I think that communication piece is key. And I didn’t do that in the early days because I felt like I needed to be there with my baby every single moment he was awake.
But recently like, “Okay, you guys go down. I just need to close my eyes for 30 more minutes.” And then shut the door, put on the noise maker, and just get that additional 30 minutes. And so, I think, yeah, if you don’t communicate with whoever you’re living with or even maybe you’re not living with them, and other people are expecting to see you at a certain time. And I think it’s okay to say, “Okay, I just need a few more hours to take a nap”, or do whatever you need to. So that you show up to the people that mean a lot to you in the best way possible.
Marissa: Yeah, probably. I wrote down as you were talking, communication facilitates rest. And that’s whether it’s with a partner or a coworker, or a family member, or a friend and yourself. Communicating with yourself too. And I think part of rest is decision making. It’s choice and that also means communicating, whether it’s with yourself or the other people you’re interacting with in your life.
Sujani: Yeah. And you kind of declare it to yourself what you’re doing and that kind of helps too. I remember when we last chatted, Marissa, we talked about those phrases like I am choosing to rest. I am choosing to spend time with my baby. And I told you I wrote those down on sticky notes and it’s still hanging off my monitor right now. And I’m just thinking about other things I choose. And they could change throughout the day. And the past couple of days I’m like, “I’m choosing to keep my house messy.”
Marissa: Yes, I love it.
Sujani: Most days it’s nice and clean and that just helps us be more energized, a crowded house doesn’t facilitate creative work or whatnot. But some days you’re just like, “I’m going to choose not to do whatever.” And some days the floor is just terrible because my son is starting to eat now. And so, there’s food everywhere. If you walked into my house it looks like it hasn’t been mopped for three weeks but it’s been vacuumed twice a day. Some days I’m just like, “You know what, whatever. It looks horrible, we’ll figure it out at some point this week.” And that’s okay.
Marissa: I definitely agree with that. I leave stuff around the house a lot. And I could pick it up for sure and eventually I do. But what’s the benefit of beating myself up and stressing out over it versus just letting it be there and allowing that space. Because we all have a lot going on whether it’s with family, or just our own stuff, or work. To expect perfection in all areas is definitely not an act of rest.
Sujani: No, it’s not. And yeah, I think going back to that phrase that you said, communication facilitates rest. And I think the first person you need to communicate that with is yourself, I think, yeah.
Marissa: Totally, yeah.
Sujani: Yeah. I know that’s been huge for myself. It’s telling myself, stop being unkind, stop having these high expectations and setting yourself up for failure. And just know why you’re doing what you’re doing and be okay with it. And yeah, keep it simple.
Marissa: I mean I really think especially the more I do this work, the more I work with people one-on-one, the building of a rest practice and redefining rest for yourself is really just like the building of a relationship with yourself. And becoming more aligned with yourself and integrity with yourself. And trusting yourself and knowing yourself. It’s really just about the relationship with yourself. Which is the most important relationship ultimately.
Sujani: No, absolutely, totally agree, yeah. I don’t have more to add to that.
Marissa: Okay. Well, on that note, is there anything before we close that you want to share with folks whether it’s a note about rest, or where they can find you and connect with you?
Sujani: Yeah. I am hanging out on LinkedIn these days. I have again chosen that to be the social media platform that keeps me the most sane. So, I’ve created those boundaries for myself so you can certainly search me up at Sujani Sivanantharajah where I think, what is it? Yeah, you should be able to find it.
Marissa: We’ll leave a link in the show notes.
Sujani: There you go, yeah. And yeah, if you want to connect, please add a note, and tell me that you came from this podcast because I always like to know, who’s adding me. And it’s just easier to accept when I know where people are coming in from. And yeah, phspot.org. That’s if you’re a public health professional and you’re looking for resources to just help you build your career. You can find us at phspot.org. And yeah, I’m sure Marissa will include that link as well.
And I think when it comes to rest, I don’t know, I kind of think back to what if I had kind of had this realization or had built these practices much earlier in my career or my life could I have had a more healthier relationship with school, and work, and even building PH Spot? And I often think, yeah, I probably could have. I mean I’m not saying I regretted the journey that I’ve took to date. I do know that it could have been easier on myself if I had done it a lot earlier. So just encourage everyone to really prioritize yourself, your mind, your body, your soul, whatever it is.
Seek out the help, seek out support, and you don’t have to do it alone. I think community is a huge aspect of figuring out rest for yourself. And yeah, and I think great resources that Marissa has. And I know it’s added to where I am today. And just very grateful to have spent this time with you.
Marissa: Thank you. That’s such a kind of note to leave this episode on. I’m so glad you could join us. And also, PH Spot has a podcast you can listen to and hear about career journeys. So, we’ll link that as well. And with that we’ll let everyone go, hope you all have a great week. Thanks for tuning in.
If you found this episode helpful then you have to check out my coaching program where I provide you individualized support to create a life centered around rest. Head on over to mckoolcoaching.com, that’s M-C-K-O-O-L coaching.com to learn more.
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